Beth Antony: Navigating a Better Way Through the College Application Process

Entirely by word of mouth, educator and college counseling professional Beth Antony has built a successful business based on a simple truth: there is a better way to navigate the college application process.

Over the past decade, she’s helped high school seniors into their first choice college. Her better way applies not just to kids applying to colleges, but to anyone who's trying to find their place, including businesses that are trying to find their market. Beth’s dedication to both her pro bono and for-profit clients is inspiring and uplifting.

Key Takeaways

• “Applying to college is a series of tasks where you need information, guidance, and you need support through your own discernment process. It doesn’t have to be terrible. It doesn’t have to be scary.”

• “I use the word discern a lot. And I do that intentionally to discern who they are. Because when you start a college as a freshman, you're not the same person you are when you finish as a senior. And we need to get that right environment where it can be flexible and support that kind of academic, social, and emotional growth.”

• “…what's your philosophy of education? Do you view it as a means to an end, or is higher ed kind of this banquet table, you go and you feast and you try things, and it's just important to know what you don't like as it is to find out what you do like and what you're passionate about. We need to be strategic and intentional with choices for our students.”

• On her pro bono clients: “Helping them realize their potential, but to also broaden…horizons…look at it through this lens.”

• “If someone starts off a conversation, I want my child to go to a really competitive school. There's a lot to unpack in that statement. Once we start teasing out those factors…what I'm really hearing is I just want the best for my child. I don't know what that means. I don't have language around this, so I'm going to say an Ivy, I'm going to say, the best, the most competitive and what the most competitive for I'd say the majority of people isn't always the best decision.”

• If you work with Beth, you’re getting a process, not an outcome. It’s sometimes hard for parents to understand.

• “Children learn what they live. When they're shown another way. They're always receptive. I always said I can work with any student - parents: That's a different story. Kids are not the issue.”

• “Sometimes people just need to be reminded that they can do hard things.”

Transcript

Tom: Why start a business helping kids find the right college? How do you get into your first choice college and how do you attract clients if you do? No marketing and no sales. These are some of the questions I asked Beth Antony, a ten year veteran of helping high schoolers get into their first choice college. Beth started her business while her two boys were in grade school. She knew the college application process did not have to be this bad, and she had an idea for a better way. Her better way applies not just to kids applying to colleges, but to anyone who's trying to find their place, including businesses that are trying to find their market. Beth’s dedication to her clients and her story of both for profit and pro bono services is something you won't want to miss. And she's our guest on this episode of the Fortune's Path podcast.

Beth: [00:01:04] It's nice to be here with you, Tom.

Tom: [00:01:06] I am really fascinated and impressed by what you've done. You've told me before. But if you could tell me again, kind of the story of the founding of your business and why you decided to begin helping kids through their college journey.

Beth: [00:01:26] The reason I started doing this is I saw a better way. I was a mom surrounded by people whose kids were going through the process. And I heard a lot of horror stories, a lot of urban legend, you know, applying for colleges, this monster, this nightmare. And I knew that there had to be a better way. I had been doing a lot of freelance writing back then, and parents and friends were bringing their kids essays to me and saying, can you take a look? What do you think? And I thought, that's a small part of the puzzle and not the most important part. I started to go through my own process of discernment and think about how can I help? My background is in education and teaching and kind of put those pieces together. And next thing you know, I have my practice.

Tom: [00:02:19] And were your sons your first customers?

Beth: [00:02:21] No, no, no, they were they were early in high school, so maybe John might have been even in elementary school at that point.

Tom: [00:02:32] So you were prepared for this when they started with you. In other words, you've been doing it for a while. When they went through it.

Beth: [00:02:39] I was prepared professionally.

Tom: [00:02:44] Not in any other way.

Beth: [00:02:46] I knew what to expect. For sure. And help guide them a bit.

Tom: [00:02:51] What was your first concept of that better idea? You said you knew there was a better idea. Do you remember what that was when you started? And if it's changed at all?

Beth: [00:03:00] It kind of is in two different areas. First of all, it doesn't have to be so fraught with emotion, anxiety, worry. My background is applied human development and educational psychology. Using that background, we can kind of bring everything down to a manageable level. I tell students all the time, if you've gotten yourself to junior year in high school successfully, and you've managed to stay afloat and make friends and do all these things, you can do this. Applying to college is a series of tasks you need information, you need guidance, and you need to be supported through your own discernment processes. But it doesn't have to be terrible. It doesn't have to be scary. It's really just taking a young person and helping them make their first independent decisions and steps into adulthood and figuring out who they are and how they want to live their life. I think a lot of students look at this process and say, I have to know what I want to do. I have to know what I want to be. Absolutely not. College is another step, another place to learn, grow. I use the word discern a lot. And I do that intentionally to discern who they are. Because when you start a college as a freshman, you're not the same person you are when you finish as a senior. And we need to get that right environment where it can be flexible and support that kind of academic, social, and emotional growth.

Tom: [00:04:23] How important do you think college is in someone's development? How much does it even matter?

Beth: [00:04:33] It matters as much as it matters, right? It matters as much as a student places a priority on it. College can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. One of the questions I ask my clients is, what's your philosophy of education? Do you view it as a means to an end, or is higher ed kind of this banquet table, you go and you feast and you try things, and it's just important to know what you don't like as it is to find out what you do like and what you're passionate about. And people are. It's a spectrum. People fall into all different areas on that spectrum based on their likes and wants, but also on the backgrounds they're coming from. Not everyone has that great grand luxury to say, I'd like to try everything. Some people get one shot and they need to use it. We need to be very, very strategic and intentional with choices for our students.

Tom: [00:05:25] Do you see any trends in those that answer to is it a banquet or a means to an end? Like, have you … you've been doing this for ten years or so, right?

Beth: [00:05:33] A little bit less. But yeah, I see some trends. My practice is divided into two parts, the for-profit business part, and then the other part is a pro bono part dedicated to working with students from historically marginalized and excluded communities. First gens. People who come from those backgrounds tend to look at college more as a ticket, right? I got the ticket. And what am I going to do with it? Where am I going to go? And my job is to help them realize that potential, but to also kind of broaden those horizons and say, while that can happen, let's also look at it through this lens. The for profit side people tend to come from a more privileged background. They have those luxuries and considerations that not everybody else has.

Tom: [00:06:29] Where a child is in their family in terms of like who's going to college previously has a big impact on their expectation about college. For those - let's talk a second about your, your nonprofit, part of your business. Talk to me about the common experiences you see with those kids, how do they come into it psychologically, emotionally, etc.?

Beth: [00:06:58] They are a joy to work with those students and those families. They are enthusiastic and they are hopeful. That is something that I sometimes don't hear a lot of with some students. This is an interesting world we're living in. Young people sometimes don't have enough hope. These are kids who are hopeful not only about themselves and their own abilities and their futures. They're hopeful about their families, and they're hopeful about how they can affect real change in the world. Once they get over that barrier, once they get admitted into the arena.

Tom: [00:07:34] So the the pro bono kids. That's really interesting. Are they less cynical?

Beth: [00:07:42] In my experience. Yes. Now cautious. That's different. Certainly cautious. Parents are definitely cautious. We're speaking a completely different language. The work I do with that population … I have to build a foundation before we can even start. Saying, hey, have you taken a college tour? What's a college tour? Right. That sort of thing. It's a completely different approach. There's a lot of caution, maybe some trepidation. And a lot of trust building that goes on.

Tom: [00:08:17] How are you identifying those kids?

Beth: [00:08:19] They get sent to me. I volunteer with certain organizations and you know, just word of mouth. That's how everybody pretty much finds out about me. Word of mouth.

Tom: [00:08:28] So one of your contacts finds a child from an underprivileged background who wants to go to college, who has aspirations to college. Do you tend to work with kids who have, high potential that they're both in the pro bono and in the for profit? These kids who are high achievers for the most part.

Beth: [00:08:51] Any kid can be a high achiever, right? How do we define that? There's so many different kinds of success. Academics, certainly. But I work with a range of kids with a range of gifts and talents. I also have a background in special needs education. People who have learning differences, people who live with visible and invisible disabilities, things like ADD, ADHD mental health and wellness considerations. So there's a whole host to consider when we're looking at the entire person. Success can be defined so many different ways going to college, getting yourself there if you live with extreme, clinical anxiety, going to college and saying, I'm going to make that move, that's success. Yes. Where you are might be a little secondary to that.

Tom: [00:09:45] Just being there is a big deal.

Beth: [00:09:47] That's that's the win. Yeah.

Tom: [00:09:48] Wow. Now we've talked before. You told me that your process can start sophomore year. That's as early as you take kids.

Beth: [00:09:56] Yes.

Tom: [00:09:58] Walk me through your process about what that would look like start to finish.

Beth: [00:10:02] So I get to know them. We have a general intake session. Over the years, I've developed essentially a metric which is administered through a conversation with the students. We cover everything, every aspect of their development, academics, social development, emotional development, learning style, special considerations like learning differences and any other things that make them unique and might be of concern to them. Prior to meeting with the student, there's always a one hour meeting with the invested adult, whether that's a parent or somebody else. I lay out the process for them. Everyone comes to the table knowing what to expect and how we're going to do this. It starts off very gently and it remains gentle. It's a gentle process. And I think that's why it's so successful.

Tom: [00:11:05] It is counseling. This is not buying. This is not like can you help me buy my way into college counseling?

Beth: [00:11:18] Certainly not. Right. We've all seen how that went.

Tom: [00:11:20] That's right. Sometimes that doesn't end up well for anybody.

Beth: [00:11:23] No, not at all. If someone starts off a conversation, I want my child to go to a really competitive school. There's a lot to unpack in that statement. So why? What is really competitive? Why are you pulling Harvard out of the air? There's a lot to figure out there. Once we start teasing out those factors we really get to the heart of the matter. What I'm really hearing is I just want the best for my my child. I don't know what that means. I don't have language around this, so I'm going to say an Ivy, I'm going to say, the best, the most competitive and what the most competitive for I'd say the majority of people isn't always the best decision. Who are we competing against ourselves?

Tom: [00:12:13] Let's talk a little bit about that. I'm assuming you've been watching the protests at Columbia and other universities. What are your thoughts on that? Has that changed the way you approach your work at all?

Beth: [00:12:27] There's so much going on in the landscape of higher education right now. Certainly the protests there has been the rollback of DEI initiatives. We've had our FAFSA fiasco this year, and we're seeing standardized testing, which was rolled back as well during the Covid era, now making a resurgence. We're seeing a lot of different things. I'm concerned because none of this is supports the whole person, the whole student in terms of those rollbacks. The protests, that's a different issue that is also creating a lot of chaos on the higher ed landscape. I don't have the answer. You know how present school presidents should be handling it. Because every higher ed institution is unique and has their own culture mission. A religiously affiliated school is going to have a different approach to managing student concerns as opposed to a non-denominational, non-affiliated school. But there's been a lot this year. It's funny, every year since Covid, I've said this is the most challenging year I've ever had. And it's like the universe….

Tom: [00:13:42] It keeps happening.

Beth: [00:13:43] Hold on. I've got something else for you.

Tom: [00:13:46] That's right.

Tom: [00:13:47] Are you seeing a change in, are the protests a concern to parents or kids applying right now? Does that come up in conversation?

Beth: [00:13:57] Yes, absolutely. It comes up and a lot more comes up as well. You know, legislation, a lot of schools that are located in states in the South. There's a lot of concerns about recent legislation in those places as well. People are making decisions based on what they're seeing happen. Students generally are very excited about the protests, not perhaps in a political way in terms of stating their positions. But I think they're excited to see engagement. And it kind of goes back to that notion of hope that I mentioned earlier. We've been a little bit short on hope in the last few years. Despite the nature of these protests I think they're excited to see some level of engagement and that they have some agency perhaps in in terms of effecting change.

Tom: [00:14:44] Do you see kids who are - I have my own college experience to draw from - which was my Dad said I was dragging my feet and my dad says, all right, you have to apply to 12 colleges. He just pulled that number out of the air. It's a lot. This was at the beginning of the Common Application. So I was really fortunate because I just filled out the common application and said, I'm only going to apply to schools on here. And so I just had one Xerox, I think 12 times all done and had next to no criteria for what to pick what was on the common application version. And in many ways, didn't you know, I didn't get into my first choice. So I went to Vanderbilt because they were the first acceptance I got after the rejection from my first choice.

Beth: [00:15:32] Wow.

Tom: [00:15:32] That was the whole discernment process. And it's in the South, so it'll be better weather than New Jersey. Things worked out okay. But in many ways, I feel like it didn't matter. I met Anna here in Nashville, so obviously that was very important. But where I went to college, did it matter? Did it matter that I chose Vanderbilt instead of Sewanee or that I chose, you know, some of the others? Did it matter that I went to Vanderbilt instead of Fairfield or any of that? So if you're talking about the hopelessness with the kids, what's the source of that? Do they sort of look at you know, colleges and absurdity. This is just a stupid hoop that my parents have asked me to jump through or you know, my kids are older. So I've lost touch with this. Tell me what that generation is thinking about college.

Beth: [00:16:28] That sense of hopelessness is bigger than the college process. It's, these are kids who are have experienced and lived through a worldwide pandemic. Their whole world was rocked. Their education was interrupted. They are looking at the studies that are being done right now. We're seeing some really limited group, you know, the limiting of growth socially, emotionally. And we're seeing a huge - I cannot overstate how important this is - onslaught of mental health considerations at the college. My son attends Holy Cross. We have seen a 400% increase in requests for mental health services on this small little, you know, liberal arts school campus. That's significant. That's echoing this lack of hope and this speaking to the trials and tribulations that these kids have experienced and often not even spoken about. I'm sorry. I kind of wandered away from your original question.

Tom: [00:17:33] No, no that's just more interesting. I'm going to play cynic for just a second because it's such an easy role. So there's more awareness of mental illness. Are we pathologizing? Is that increase of 400% at Holy Cross the result of kids who are really suffering, or is it just, this is now part of our identity as a young person that I have some issue so we pathologize.

Beth: [00:18:05] I don't think we're pathologizing. I think we're becoming more open as a society. And we're talking about things in, in my generation, you know, I come from that Irish Catholic background, you know, I'm worried about this. Let's go get a drink of water. Put your head down on your desk for a minute and you'll be fine, as opposed to "Would you like to talk about what's concerning you?"

Tom: [00:18:28] That's right. Just pretend it will go away. Close your eyes and it will go away.

Beth: [00:18:34] It will go away. One wonderful thing about this generation is they're talking about everything. They're talking about their concerns. They're talking about when they're not, when they're not feeling well, and they're empowered to do that. We're also seeing, in terms of gender identity, sexuality, all these sorts of things. It's okay to talk about these things now in a lot of places. Those things were just not - they were kind of hidden. I think with that hand in hand comes the 400% increase where they're asking and I think it's so appropriate something is on my mind, something is bothering me. I'm going to get some support around it. As a parent, I think, oh, what could be healthier, right. I really do think there's a lot going on. Kids are worried about the state of the world. There's wars and all these sorts of things. The political landscape, depends where kids are, all sorts of things.

Tom: [00:19:33] So tell me about the separation you see between the children's or the kids expectations and hopes and dreams for college and the parents? Is there a wide gap there?

Beth: [00:19:47] Sometimes. The biggest joy I could possibly experience is when I get a family and they're all on the same page. Shared values, shared communication. That's a joy. That's wonderful. But sometimes I'm a student’s safe place because despite my approach, a parent will hire me because my track record is really good. Then the student will say, well, I'm getting really pushed in this area, that area, or they're turning the screws in this way or that way. And it's interesting. I'll end up having to run interference to the level that it's appropriate. On behalf of the student. The student is always my first concern. They are my client.

Tom: [00:20:33] That's a great topic about the decision process in these organizations, in these universities. The cynicism that I have is that it feels like a 100% a crapshoot. How do they decide? How do they put together a class? And can you, as an advisor, have an influence? Are you able to speak to somebody and go, well, you know, you really need to consider this kid for these reasons. Or they're like, talk to the hand. We don't talk to advisors.

Beth: [00:21:07] No, I would never speak with somebody in the college ever. That would not be appropriate for me to do however I can. I can absolutely help the student. Form their way, find their way. A lot of people do think it's a crapshoot, however, and some schools perhaps it is. We're looking at a large school that's using test scores. Okay? I mean, get the score, get in. Right. That's not a mystery. But if we're looking at other schools that do holistic admissions, which there are several schools that do, that's not a crapshoot. Those classes are put together quite literally by a group of admission counselors sitting around a table holding applications, believe it or not, paper applications and saying, you know, we need a female tuba player from New Mexico. You know, she brings this gift to our school. If a student - if it's the right fit. I would strongly encourage them to explore schools that have holistic admissions if they're really looking for that kind of college experience. Not every student wants that experience, though. I have students come to me all the time who just say I want to go to football games and join a fraternity or sorority and just do a bit of work.

Tom: [00:22:30] That sounds like fun.

Beth: [00:22:32] Yeah, and it's not my job to judge. There is no right or wrong. It's all about fit.

Tom: [00:22:37] Do you have a list of like go to schools, I mean there's 2000, 3000 schools in the US. I don't know how many it is. It's a big number.

Beth: [00:22:47] It's a big number. When we add in community colleges and all sorts of special programs, I don't even know what that number would be. I do not have a go-to list. Everything is individualized. So after I have that initial intake session with the student, I go through and run through their data and put together based on what they we have spoken about a list of schools for exploration, and usually it's 12 to 15 schools for them to explore, not to apply to, to explore. It's just as important for them to be able to cross off schools and to be able to articulate why they like that school as opposed to, my friend's older brother goes there - that sort of thing.

Tom: [00:23:27] That's a lot of data to keep track of if there's, let's guesstimate that there's 3000 schools that you're looking at. How do you keep track of all that data? And it changes from year to year? I imagine it does.

Beth: [00:23:40] It does. I just have to stay on top of it. There's a lot of ways I can do that, you know, through conferences, professional organizations, conversations with colleagues. This is an area of interest for me, right?

Tom: [00:23:55] Right. So it's not hard. I remember the way I chose my 12. Like I said, it was almost random. But I also had one guide book. And I go into the guidebook. And at the time I thought, well, I don't want to be in a fraternity. I was trying I would look at, how much does the fraternity and sorority life have to do with the social life of the school? Vanderbilt had a very high. I applied anyway, I don't even remember why. But that was my one like criteria to narrow. I think back then there were about 50 schools that accepted the Common App, so it wasn't that hard to get that 50 down to 12. So what do you do? You go through a similar process when you do your intake, you're learning about the child, and then are you starting to put together kind of weed out criteria about, well, we know we don't want this.

Beth: [00:24:48] Absolutely. I talk about that with them during that intake session. Maybe not by school name necessarily, but I'm working right now with a client and it's so interesting. She's telling me I want a big school. She wants a big school or mid-size school, 15 to 20,000 (students) plus. Every single thing she's telling me is, oh, my gosh, I want 15 students or less in my classroom, and I want my professors to know me by name, and I want all these things.

Beth: [00:25:21] You don't want a big school. And that's okay. You didn't know that because you're a kid and you need somebody to show you the way this is. And parents shouldn't have to know all of this, right? I don't know how to be an accountant. We can't all be everything. Having someone show you the way and be able to say, this is this, and the light bulb goes on, right?

Tom: [00:25:47] In some ways, college has absolutely nothing to do with what you want to do with the rest of your life. It really is more about what do you think you want to do next year.

Beth: [00:25:56] My personal philosophy. Absolutely. But I went to a liberal arts school. I was a history major undergraduate. My two kids, my older son was a philosophy major in college and works at a law school now, and my youngest son is a technical theater and production major.

Tom: [00:26:17] That's cool.

Beth: [00:26:18] But he has an internship with the John F Kennedy Foundation this summer. How those related? They're not. That's the beauty of a liberal arts education. But not everybody wants that. Again, it goes back to what's your philosophy of education? Is it a means to an end or is it more of a process of exploration? Both valid, both absolutely valid. And I can help people with either one.

Tom: [00:26:44]Let's talk about the pro bono kids again for a second. So are they as anxious as the as the kids you see in your for profit practice?

Beth: [00:26:54] Not as performance anxious as life anxious. Sometimes they feel like they're carrying the weight of everybody else right on their shoulders. If I can do this, then we all win.

Beth: [00:27:08] Wow. That's big, that's heavy.

Tom: [00:27:10] That's a lot of weight when you're 17.

Beth: [00:27:12] Absolutely. That's why it's such a privilege to support somebody going through that process. More typically my poor for-profit kids are performance anxious. It's all those stereotypes. Get the good grades. Be the president. Start the club, start a foundation. All those sorts of things which you don't need to do.

Tom: [00:27:38] There's are you doing that performance because you're trying to get the approval of, I don't know, Mom and Dad? Or are you doing that because you're a generally driven person? That comes from it's like, no, from my heart. I'm going to do everything right. You're trying to determine, is this a sincere ambition on the part of the kid, or are they trying to avoid a theoretical beating? I mean, a hypothetical beating?

Beth: [00:28:13] Absolutely. I have a young client right now who just started with me. She's a sophomore in high school. She came in hot and ready and she's going to be a dermatologist. Wow, how unusually specific that is. And I said, well.

Tom: [00:28:31] Sophomore year in High school.

Beth: [00:28:32] Let's talk about that. You must be really enjoying your science class … I hate science.

Tom: [00:28:40] That's a red flag.

Beth: [00:28:43] Think again, there's a lot of that. Sometimes kids just say things because they think it sounds good. There's also that big sweatshirt factor, right? We all want the sweatshirt that we can wear on Senior Day. Parents want that too sometimes. Let's get to the heart of the matter. There's a lot of good schools and there's a lot of good programs. Just because you might not recognize the name initially, that doesn't impact the value.

Tom: [00:29:13] So what’s the weed out process for the kids who are pro bono? Tell me, what are the kinds of questions that they are asking or the statements that they're making that help you weed out.

Beth: [00:29:28] The weed out to accept them as a client?

Tom: [00:29:31] No to well, I do.

Beth: [00:29:34] I don't turn anyone away.

Tom: [00:29:35] But you don't turn anyone away.

Beth: [00:29:37] I've never turned pro bono case away. Ever.

Tom: [00:29:39] That's fabulous. But you have turned some of the for profit people away.

Beth: [00:29:42] I have. I have indeed. They were not a fit.

Tom: [00:29:46] They were not a fit. How do you determine that? How do you determine whether somebody is a fit?

Beth: [00:29:50] Through that initial conversation with a parent? I can just tell whether or not they, first of all, respect and value my process, which is unique and quite different than many others - certainly different than school based counselors, but very different than other independent counselors out there. So if we're not in sync and I'm looking and I'm seeing a triangle and they're looking and they're seeing a square. It's not going to work.

Tom: [00:30:18] So you say if I work with Beth, I'm getting a process, not an outcome.

Beth: [00:30:25] Absolutely. My background is in education. The first thing they teach us when we're learning to be teachers is process over product.

Tom: [00:30:36] Right.

Beth: [00:30:36] It's true whether they're little they're medium or they're big kids.

Tom: [00:30:39] You know that your process works for you.

Beth: [00:30:46] And it does. Every single time. When I tell that to parents, I'm like, oh. But it works because it's an authentic process and we're figuring out truly who this student is and how they want to live their life. So of course it works because we've done our work. If we if we do our work, of course you're going to be admitted into your first choice colleges and universities. Will you be able to go. That's another, you know, finances. That's a whole other area. But every student I've ever had throughout my entire practice has been admitted to their first choices because we've done the work.

Tom: [00:31:25] Wow.

Beth: [00:31:26] Yep.

Tom: [00:31:28] That's amazing. Why do you think it works? You say because you do the work. What's the work that makes it work?

Beth: [00:31:37] We're figuring out because I'm going through that window, so to speak, of applied human development and educational psychology, which I don't really know anybody else who's doing that. We're looking at … that age is so unique and so many things are happening simultaneously. If we have a handle on assessment, knowing where they are, and we listen, and in terms of that counseling aspect, and supporting them through discernment, it's, kind of a no brainer. It really does unfold pretty naturally.

Tom: [00:32:18] But it has to work for the school, too. If they're getting into their first choice. The schools have to see something in your process as well. Right?

Beth: [00:32:29] Right. Well, the students are choosing schools that are so well aligned with who they are academically, socially, emotionally with their extracurriculars, values. So they're writing personal statements that, echo their extracurricular involvement there. Service work is going to be really in sync with the institutions they're applying to, because we've really done that level of work.

Tom: [00:32:54] It's fascinating to me because - I'm going to apply kind of a crass analogy to this. It's a bit…. so sales … how do you target your ideal customer in sales? If I think about myself as a student applying to colleges, I am a product. My resume. Not me necessarily, but my resume is a product that I am attempting to sell to a college, and their acceptance of me into their college is like, okay, they bought. I got the outcome I was looking for. You can do it the way I did it, which is like just send it to everybody. Somebody will say yes. Or you can target efficiently. What you're, it sounds to me like, your discernment process is essentially a targeting process of who are the best buyers of this kid's resume.

Beth: [00:33:51] Right. I'd say, who's the most authentic fit. That's the way I'd put it.

Tom: [00:33:56] That's a much nicer way to put it. How do you know that? Because these colleges … I've always felt like you had to go there and talk to people and walk the campus and get a sense of what they were about. If I read a college guide, it's really hard to tell the difference between one and another. They tend to sound pretty similar.

Beth: [00:34:24] You have to do the work. Absolutely. I have to do the work, so I visit colleges and universities all the time. Stay abreast of all of their developments. Read all the time. I mean it's funny, my kids say my special interest is college and universities. Some people (are) just staying on top of it. Like many educators, it's not a chore when you enjoy it.

Tom: [00:34:58] You'r fascinated by it so it's not hard.

Beth: [00:34:59] Exactly.

Tom: [00:35:02] Do you have a sense of where higher education in the US is going right now? If you had to predict a trend.

Beth: [00:35:11] I'm worried. I'm going to be honest. I thought we were heading in a really fantastic direction leveling that playing field for a lot of people. What I'm seeing in our political climate is impacting higher ed, and people get scared. What people do is retreat. That's not true universally. That's not true across the board. But I have some concerns. That's why it's more important than ever for me to help these kids find their place in and to keep that hope for them because higher ed can be transformative for a lot of people. It won't determine the rest of your life, but it can be a transformational time. For a person who you meet, how you live, what you learn, the mistakes you make, all those things those are. That's a big deal.

Tom: [00:36:13] Yeah. I met my wife when I quit drinking in college, so it was a pretty transformative experience.

Beth: [00:36:18] Absolutely.

Tom: [00:36:19] I was very fortunate that I came from an environment where my economic future probably wasn't dramatically impacted by my college education. But it is still highly correlative with income. I think it's getting less correlative. But I still think that college still correlates with income. Is that correct?

Beth: [00:36:43] To some extent you're right. I think we're seeing less and less of that because now we're seeing the push towards, colleges, the old high school. Right. And grad schools, the new college. God forbid. The first thing my son heard when he graduated with his degree in philosophy was like, good, great job. Why did you major in philosophy? When are you applying to grad school? You know, he's still got the mortarboard on his head.

Tom: [00:37:13] That's right. Right. Congratulations. Here's a kick.

Beth: [00:37:17] I think once somebody has been through a process like the one I take the kids through for undergrad, I think they can use that and apply that or come back and say I need some more support. To their own next steps. We can get caught up in a race to nowhere. What what is it? Who? We go back to the who? Who do you want to be? Who are you and how do you want to live your life? That's really it.

Tom: [00:37:49] Great question. I love those questions. Do you ask yourself those questions now?

Beth: [00:37:53] Oh my gosh. Absolutely. We lived in Nashville for almost 17 years - and in August, September it'll be two years - we moved up to Boston. That move was absolutely part of the result of that kind of questioning, who am I and how do I want to live my life? And my husband as well.

Tom: [00:38:23] So what would the answers to the questions that made you move?

Beth: [00:38:27] So why did we move?

Tom: [00:38:29] You said you were asking that question, who am I and what I want to live my life through that discernment process, what did you find out that made you say, we got to get out of Nashville?

Beth: [00:38:38] Well, I wanted to be in a place that was culturally more reflective of my, I'll just speak personally, instead of the for Brent or the kids, of my personal values. I wanted to be in a place that was more in sync with my worldview, and I had lived in Boston for many, many years, gone to school in the area, and knew that this was a place that could be true. No place is perfect. Nothing is universal. But when we moved back, we intentionally picked Brookline because we knew this would be a place that would be reflective of our values and how we wanted to spend time in this phase of life. I often felt, to be 100% honest, when I was living in Nashville, despite it being a great place to raise the kids and a wonderful time, I felt frustrated frequently. I was a bit - I always used to joke around and say someday I'm going to write the story of my time in Nashville and call it out of tune - I always felt I was a little bit out of tune with some of the stuff going out there.

Tom: [00:39:56] Well, first, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. So has that frustration gone away as a result of moving to Brookline?

Beth: [00:40:04] Yeah. Nothing in the world is, 100% perfect. But I am personally very happy and I feel much more at peace. You know I look back at, I follow the news there still, and it's the storms last night, and I know what’s going on at the state legislature and all those sorts of things. I read that and I say, yeah, good call. Beth. Good call.

Beth: [00:40:34] That's one person's perspective.

Tom: [00:40:38] Yeah. Oh, boy. The statehouse stuff. So I'm a blue person in a red state, and that's one of. And and I have talked about leaving Tennessee partially for that reason. And but then there's, you know. Some of these, like. Well, we all do. I need to retreat to a place where everybody thinks like I do, or everybody has the same beliefs that I do, blah blah blah. And I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer there. You know, my my son always felt like he was the most or middle child. Joe felt like he was typically the most conservative person among liberals. And then he went to college and he became the more liberal person among conservatives. And I think he liked that switch for him. Was beneficial. And I think it helped him to begin to not necessarily associate himself with any particular tribe. And I would say that but I mean, I do feel like kind of the college you talked about the sweatshirt mentality. Colleges do tend to promote a sense of tribalism. I'm like, well we're, we're the Ivies you know, or we're the near Ivies or whatever. We're the state schools. And it's like, you know as you say from an individual discernment standpoint, those are pretty much irrelevant. Identities. Right.

Beth: [00:42:09] But identity is important, right? We all want to belong. Right. One of the reasons I moved right I wanted to feel like I belonged. Right. So that sense of identity is important. And I think when you're taking these first independent steps into adulthood, away from your family, away from the cocoon, away from everything you've known. It's going to a place where you feel like I can plug in to the identity of a sec or a whatever else, you know, a Jesuit school or whatever it is. That's of tremendous comfort to somebody who is, you know, 16, 17 years old, 17, 18 years old. Whenever, you know, when they start going through this process, that's tremendously comforting.

Tom: [00:42:54] Why start as a sophomore? I mean, I didn't think about this stuff at all until, I don't know, junior year, maybe midway through junior year or something.

Tom: [00:43:04] Why start as a sophomore?

Beth: [00:43:05] Yeah, the world has changed. I mean, you know, I was applying to college in 1983 with a pen, you know. With an actual pen. At the kitchen table. And a stamp.

Tom: [00:43:16] I was the same.

Beth: [00:43:17] And an envelope. So, yeah, it's different. You know, I and you don't have to start as a sophomore. You can. That's the youngest. I'll take somebody. But and, you know, that tends to be my clients from. Right? There's a little bit truth to the the go, go, go stereotypes of the big city. Chicago, New York, Washington. Right. San Francisco, those sorts of places. And that's just to help be a general academic counselor to these kids. So more advising on curriculum development helping them figure out how they want to engage instead of joining 500 different clubs and, you know, putting that on a resume, that's, that's nonsense, you know. Let's figure out what you're good at, what you enjoy. How do you want to spend your time. And for a big question that I ask all the students I work with which often stumps them during that initial session, is I hear a lot about what you want, what you want and what you want, but I think it's a huge consideration is how do you intend to contribute to the life of your chosen academic institution? How are you going to give back to your community that reciprocity is so important for a successful college experience, in my opinion, and getting them thinking not about what I want, what I need, what I can get, how I intend to contribute. Right. And that's a muscle that needs to be worked. You know, hopefully, ideally throughout our throughout our lives.

Tom: [00:44:46] That's really interesting. So I'm going to make an analogy again between a kid applying to college and say a software product. So Anne and I have recently started watching Silicon Valley and we're way behind the times. It's great, but it is funny. So one of one of the running gags in it is, is that when anybody who's talking about their business always says, we're going to change the world, or we're going to make the world a better place, and they never define how or why. It's just sort of like they're you know, bullshit blanket that they put over what they're doing. Yeah. And I think so. If you ask a kid, how are you going to make the institution better? How are you going to contribute to the institution that you're going to that asks them to go a level deeper then? Well, I'm going to make the world a better place. And to get specific about it, what are good answers? Like if you said to, to me, how are you going to make time you're applying to Vanderbilt, how are you going to make that a better place? What would sound like a good answer? Enough.

Beth: [00:45:49] Anything that's authentic, anything that's true. Anything that's true. We can start with something as simple as I am. I'm a little bit shy, but I'm going to be really nice to my roommate or I'm going to make friends in the hall. We can do anything, everything with anything. We just have to find a place to begin, right? So if they give me one thing, we can grow it. It's a seed. It's a seed seeds.

Tom: [00:46:14] So if I said, I think I might want to write for the literary magazine. Is that a legitimate place to start?

Beth: [00:46:22] Sure. Absolutely, absolutely. And then we can talk more about how, you know, how you would engage with that. And then most colleges now have these writing centers, workshops that help students who are not necessarily the greatest writers. They'll refine their work, and sometimes it's work study, but sometimes it's volunteer, it's service. Right. And so maybe doing a little redirection. Have you considered this? Well, if you're, you know, if you're a great writer, have you considered another way to serve your community? There's so many different ways creatively that exist or that they can make up forged your own path, you know?

Tom: [00:46:59] So as they start to think more about what they can contribute to the institution, do you tend to see any decrease in their anxiety about the process?

Beth: [00:47:09] 100%. I cannot think of a student. Sometimes they come in and you can see in their body language they're tight. I've had tears of course. And Inevitably they say, oh, I feel so much better. And it's like, of course you do, because, you know, you can do this. You're not alone. Which is so important, right? We all, none of us want to feel like we're alone when we're trying to do. And we can do hard things together. This might feel a little hard, a little scary, but you're not by yourself. And again, I remind them, if you've gotten to junior year in high school, you can do this. Oh, I have to write a personal statement. Well, you've written papers.

Beth: [00:47:54] You can do this, right. Sometimes people just need to be reminded that they can do hard things.

Tom: [00:48:01] So. Do you try to change the kids? Is a leading question, but I'll ask it anyway. Perspective on it's not so much about, are you right for them? As, are they right for you?

Beth: [00:48:20] So do I try to, like, convince the kids?

Tom: [00:48:23] Yeah. Do they come? Because I would think the anxiety to me comes in like, oh my God, you know, I'm I'm going to take the the. Case that I know. My parents have said they think I can get into an Ivy. And so there I'm a sophomore and they're concerned that I'm not doing enough extracurriculars. And I got an A minus in biology and, you know, so I'm starting to do take my SAT classes. And now it looks like the SATs are back for everybody. And I'm not that awesome a test taker and, you know, yadda yadda yadda. So it's similar kind of thing about like a startup, you know, like, you know, our investors are saying we need to make this, this, you know this revenue number and we haven't got market fit yet. And you gotta, you know, blah, blah, blah. So it's all of these pressures that come from a predetermined outcome of deciding that that success equals X outcome. And you're targeting a specific market. So in the case of a kid Ivies which might not be the right market, it may be that you're actually there is no market fit for you on an Ivy. Right. And that's not because you're, you know, insufficient. It's because they're not right for you.

Beth: [00:49:40] It's not the right fit. Right? Right. Right. Now, who knows what the future will bring?

Tom: [00:49:44] Right, right, right. So when somebody comes to you and they're, they're in that very stereotypical scenario that I described, what what are some of your initial advice to them and to their parents to.

Beth: [00:49:58] You know. To it's a different conversation with parents. So and I have been in I, I am in that situation right now with a, a kind of a you know What's the right word? Go go go. High profile, very successful couple from San Francisco and And, boy, it's it's like pulling teeth with the parents. It's got to be an ivy or or or not.

Tom: [00:50:27] And it's like, Ivy or bust.

Beth: [00:50:28] Yeah. We're still unpacking that. Why? Why? And what I'm learning the more I talk to the parents is it's fear based. They both went to Ivies. What will people think? Well, they went to the Ivies in the early 80s. Totally different. And the Ivies aren't what they were then. Schools change, right? And evolve based on the the climate that they exist in. A lot of that stuff is fear based. A lot of that stuff is fear based for parents. What will people think if.

Beth: [00:51:02] And for students, sometimes they're just parroting what they've been surrounded by. Children learn what they live. When they're shown another way. They're always receptive. I always said I can work with any student - parents: That's a different story. Kids are not the issue.

Tom: [00:51:25] It's right. There's Cesar Milan, the guy who used to train dogs. He says it's not the dogs, it's the owners.

Beth: [00:51:33] Exactly.

Tom: [00:51:34] And that's I mean, it's interesting about that couple in San Francisco. High achieving Ivy attending couple. And fear based around the getting a negative outcome with their child or what they perceive as a negative outcome, maybe that has less prestige. Right. Do you do ever have to say it's like, look, this isn't about college. It's not about your kids. You're fucked up. You need to go to therapy.

Beth: [00:52:01] I can't say that.

Tom: [00:52:02] You can't say it quite that way, but have you told people to It's like this. This has absolutely nothing to do with your kid or their college process. This is all you.

Beth: [00:52:11] Yeah. You know, I've had very few of those conversations because people like that tend not to make it through my initial.

Tom: [00:52:19] That's. Thank God.

Beth: [00:52:22] And these people are not trying to be difficult. It is completely grounded in probably fear and maybe what perceived shame that would come from that. So they're not bad people. They're scared people. And that that's okay. We can work with that. I've had people, you know where I've just said, I'm sorry, this is not a fit for for me. This is not a fit. And I can't take you on as a client. And that's shocking for them to hear, because these typically aren't people who are ever told no, and unfortunately, it's not a ton of people that it's happened to, but, you know, yeah, there's there's been a few folks.

Tom: [00:53:02] Have you ever had to fire a client in the process?

Beth: [00:53:07] No, I have not.

Tom: [00:53:14] So the screening is working really well.

Beth: [00:53:17] It does. Well.

Tom: [00:53:20] Let's, talk a little bit about successes. There are kids who when you met them, when they were young and that kind of adorable squishiness of a young person. Then they went through their college process, and you saw them on the other side and you're like, wow, look at this outstanding adult who has emerged through this. Tell me a story like that.

Beth: [00:53:41] I really think all of my stories are success stories because they're doing it, and I know that might sound like, easy or cheesy, but I really mean that. There's value in everyone's experience, no matter what it looks like. When I think of a success story, I think of this one young man from from Nashville who I worked with years and years ago. And he was someone who was perceived by his school and his counselor as ‘not a winner’ was the terminology. There was some of ‘I don't even know what we can do with you.’ He was distraught, his parents were upset and they came to me and said, well, is there anything that can be done? I was like, absolutely. This was a kid who wasn't making great choices. We believe our own, the hype that surrounds us. So you're told you're not a winner. What are you going to act like in high school? You're going to act, you're going to fulfill that role. I had a I had a heart to heart with him and said, you can do anything. This is completely in your control, but this is what you're going to need to do to kind of get yourself aligned and ready for this process. Stop partying. Do all these things. I was so proud of him. He did all those things. He honored those requests. He changed how he was living. He ended up going to a wonderful college. I don't want to say too much because I don't want to identify him. A wonderful college. He's graduated, and I think he's three years out now, maybe. And he was just made sales director for a company in Chicago, and he keeps in touch.

Tom: [00:55:36] That's beautiful.

Beth: [00:55:37] He ran into my kids before they moved. And he said, you know, that experience changed my life. I was like, well, mic drop, that's it. I can retire because that.

Beth: [00:55:52] That's all I need. So when I think about success, that's what success looks like. Somebody who started believing in themself. Went off to college, had fun. But realized their potential. And understood that mistake. Your mistakes don't define you. We can come back from anything.

Tom: [00:56:14] I love that. I didn't get a chance to ask you about your business that much. One of the things that I enjoy about talking with you is you're like - this isn't a business. It's a business, but it's not really a business. I don't think about it as a business. I don't think of myself as running a business. Not really. I have a service that I perform, and I love performing that service, and I find a lot of reward in it. I'm in a position where I'm not out looking for clients. The phone rings. I guess the phones don't ring anymore. But anyway, someone gets in contact with me in some way, right? And new clients come in. That to me is a wonderful place for any business to get to, even if it doesn't think about itself as a business. Do you have any closing advice for parents who can't afford a guide who are beginning to embark on, as you said earlier in the in the show about this is not a process that has a reputation of being fun or enjoyable for anybody. So what advice do you give to people who are just starting out?

Beth: [00:57:35] I would say calm down. First of all, not everything in the world in your child's future is riding on this. Ask for help. There's a lot of people who do things for free. If you can't afford to hire somebody engage with your school counselor, talk to other parents, talk to people you know, in the field of education. Get curious, start reading. And sit down and talk. The most important thing is talk to your child and figure out where they are. Are they excited for college? Are they scared? Are they both? Try to assess. We know our kids pretty well. What if you could envision the kind of school your child would be? Write it down. Then show it to your school counselor and they might go, oh, well, that's Emory.

Beth: [00:58:34] Yeah. You know. Somebody might be able to, to put those pieces together, but I'd say. Come and ask for help. If you feel you need it.

Tom: [00:58:43] You made a really interesting point there at the end. I want to make sure I understand it. It's not about names. So when you say, what kind of school do you want your child to go to? Don't think, oh, as you said earlier, Harvard or whatever, UT no, it's more about where atmosphere, beliefs, that kind of thing.

Beth: [00:59:06] Mission. Look at the mission and values. At these schools now more than ever. Look what's going on at schools. Read that. See where these schools stand. That's really important. See what resonates with your personal,your family's personal values and beliefs and worldview. My kids went to a Jesuit school that I happened to go to, but if we boil everything that Holy Cross or Boston College or Fairfield or those kinds of schools, Georgetown are one. The message you will receive everywhere is we, we support and create young men and women for and with others. That really resonated for me. That might not resonate for somebody else. But if that resonates for you, well, there's a whole list of schools that you can explore. Right. That's a way to get in. So communication -ask questions.

Tom: [01:00:05] I love it. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this with me. I would love to have you back. I want to tear down higher education with you because I think it's a catastrophe right now.

Beth: [01:00:19] Let's go. You get the torch, I'll bring the pitchfork.

Tom: [01:00:27] I love it. All right, we'll save that for another time. So anyway, great seeing you again, Beth.

Beth: [01:00:32] You too. Thanks, Tom.

Tom: [01:00:43] The Fortune's Path podcast is a production of Fortune's Path. We help SaaS and health tech companies address the root causes that prevent rapid growth. Find your genius with Fortune's Path. Special thanks to Beth Anthony for being our guest. Music and editing of the Fortune's Path podcast are by my son, Ted Noser. Look for the Fortune's Path book from Advantage Books on Fortune's Path.com. I'm Tom noser. Thanks for listening and I hope we meet along fortune's path.